Side of Design

The Interplay of Design, Engineering and Contracting in Science & Tech

• BWBR • Episode 52

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The research, development, and production that takes place inside science + technology facilities is highly complex and technical. It’s no surprise that the design work that brings these environments to life demands the same level of precision. Design, engineering, and contractor teams partner closely to coordinate the advanced MEP systems and intricate space planning that maintain sterile, safe, and efficient operations.

On this episode of Side of Design, we’re joined by a couple of our own trusted partners, who add their unique perspectives on what sets these complex projects up for success—and how each discipline contributes. Bringing deep experience in the science + tech market, Partner and Mechanical Engineer Nic Igl from Dunham, Horwitz Inc. CEO Emeritus Bill McKoskey, and BWBR Principal Nate Roisen dig into developing high-tech environments.

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Matt Gerstner:

This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. Hello and welcome to Side of Design from BWBR. I'm your host, matt Gerstner. On this episode, we'll be highlighting the importance of partnership across the design, engineering and contractor teams, particularly on hugely complex projects like we see in the science and technology market. We're thrilled to be joined by some of our own trusted partners, who will add their unique perspectives on what sets a project up for success, how each discipline contributes to that success and some of the lessons they've learned along the way. Joining us today is partner and mechanical engineer Nick Igle from Dunham Horowitz Inc. Ceo Emeritus Bill McCoskey and BWBR Principal Nate Roizen. Thank you all for joining me today. It's great to have you here.

Nicolas Igl:

Thank you, nice to be here.

Matt Gerstner:

We'll just jump right in and I'm going to ask each one of you to kind of introduce yourselves to our listeners, just to get them familiar with who you are.

Nate Roisen:

Principal Architect at BWBR, been focused in our science and technology market for over 10 years now Anything laboratory, clean room, industrial related so I've touched projects in all kinds of different sectors and worked with both Bill and Nick on all kinds of different things.

Bill McKoskey:

I'm Bill McCoskey, mechanical engineer. I'm with Horwitz. We're a mechanical contractor in the Twin Cities. We've been around over 100 years. I've been at Horwitz over 36 years, had pretty much every job we have, from truck driver to CEO, and I'm on my way out, retiring shortly but happy to be here.

Matt Gerstner:

Fantastic and congratulations on that upcoming retirement. Thank you.

Nicolas Igl:

My name is Nick Igle. I am a mechanical engineer with Dunham Associates Consulting Engineer. I've been at Dunham for over 25 years and focused a lot of my work in the early years on higher ed, and the last 10 to 12 years I've been focusing on the laboratory, clean room, science and tech portion of our business.

Matt Gerstner:

Fantastic, thank you. It sounds like we've got the right group here to be talking about this subject. Let's start by talking a bit about what makes these types of high-tech projects unique.

Nicolas Igl:

Clean rooms, particularly, have a lot of different needs than, say, your traditional projects. Here we need to have specialty gown rooms, changing rooms. We're really trying to control a clean environment, and controlling that clean environment leads to a lot of additional requirements from the MEP systems here. Oh, I'm sure.

Nicolas Igl:

Yeah, so, thinking about each of these individual types, too, have a different range, but in order to maintain a clean environment, it has to do with how we're providing air to this space and how many air changes we're putting through those individual spaces here air to this space and how many air changes we're putting through those individual spaces here. So you could have increased air change rates in these spaces, ranging from 25 air changes for some of the less clean spaces to over 80 air changes for the more clean spaces. Oh, wow.

Matt Gerstner:

That's quite a bit of air cycle going on in those spaces.

Bill McKoskey:

Quite a bit of utilities also. So we end up with a number of piping systems, duct systems, which we're still trying to squeeze it all into the same size box. So it's complex and congested and a coordination challenge.

Nate Roisen:

Our projects as we're working on, can be kind of small. It could be a 300-square-foot room but if what they're doing in there is sensitive enough, a plant that is required to support that one room, through all the different system impacts and upfront in terms of goals for cleanliness, that and when the rubber meets the road, and Nick and Bill are trying to design and build the system.

Nicolas Igl:

Yeah, so you hit on something there, nate, with the early questions to ask and early things to go through, because that really sets the requirements of what we need and informs how much space requirements you may have with MEP systems. Things like is it an ISO, the ISO class of the clean rooms? Iso 8 clean rooms require less airflow than an ISO 4 or 5 clean room. And then the space conditions as well. So four or five clean room and then the space conditions as well. So if we have a space that has more traditional temperature and humidity say 72, 50% relative humidity, you'll have a more traditional type of system. But if we have requirements where you have lower temperature, lower humidity, it'll really lead you to some more complex mechanical systems humidity, it'll really lead you to some more complex mechanical systems.

Bill McKoskey:

It's really important to have a solid OPR, the owner project requirements and a basis of design, probably before you even start putting pen to paper, so that you know the direction you're going and you don't end up in a place you don't want to be.

Matt Gerstner:

I can imagine that would be crucial to completing a project efficiently and on budget as well. So in the high-tech realm you're talking about different kinds of projects. I understand you know there's different fields that all fall under high-tech and it sounds like they all have very unique requirements for each one, but I understand there's crossover between them.

Nate Roisen:

When I started working on these projects, it's like a clean room is a clean room and you can do anything in a room that's clean enough. But depending on the market that you're working in, if it's a pharma market, cross-contamination and biological infection is just going to be. You'll spend hours talking about that with the client and working through different strategies to minimize those risks. If you're working in the semiconductor world, all of a sudden you have to be worried about static electricity and all the different details.

Nate Roisen:

The way you think about moving material through a space can lead to incredibly different layouts across the sectors. And then you know from a system standpoint and you're concerned about the cross-contamination of the product and material, as well as just how the space is treated there. Why so many hallways, triple sets of circulation. It's because each one serves a specific function for people and product to move in a specific direction and also serves a function for airflow and the way that you push air away from the most sensitive spaces. And all of that has space impacts that you need to understand right up front.

Nicolas Igl:

Pressure cascades are a big thing in there, and if it's, you know, if we need to have sinks, so we are bringing, you know, two air flows into one area. Or if we need to have sinks, so we are bringing two air flows into one area. Or if we're cascading from the clean to dirty and keeping a concern on what that cross-contamination might be.

Bill McKoskey:

Certainly third-party certifications like FDA and the MedTech and PharmaWorld very important to think about ahead of the game. How do those.

Nate Roisen:

I'm going to take Matt's job now. Go for it. Maybe I suggest going to take Matt's job now. Go for it. Maybe I suggest a question? No, please do. Bill, how do the FDA certifications impact your role in the contracting in the building world?

Bill McKoskey:

You know, I don't know if it's as much on the design and installation side as the downside if they don't achieve it, you know, if their clean room doesn't achieve it and they have a bunch of product that they now need to throw away. I mean just it can be a terrible event, and how far back do you go with the product you've been making. It's just a scary scenario. I think it's a big deal if they're not meeting their numbers in the semiconductor world also, because they're probably also throwing away some product. So it's just important that the design meet the end intent. But when you have that third party looking over your shoulder, it's a little bit scarier.

Matt Gerstner:

I can imagine that that would be a driving factor in things when you're trying to make sure the system is functioning properly.

Bill McKoskey:

It can make us all look really bad when it doesn't work For something like that.

Nicolas Igl:

it's really making sure we have the right people on the client's and owner's side, that we can have the conversation to meet what their specific requirements might be, because I have noticed it be slightly different from client to client, even in the same market sector.

Matt Gerstner:

You brought up a good thing there. You started to talk about teams. So what are some of the benefits of a team approach as opposed to more like traditional order of operations? Can you clarify what like a traditional approach is?

Nate Roisen:

Well, I think the traditional approach if you're talking about, like a high school or something, would be a design team designs the project and sends it out to bid and a bunch of different contractors bid on it and then they start building based on who had the lowest or the best value bid right. I don't know that there's ever been a project in our realm that's ever taken on that traditional approach. It seems like having early involvement with contractors and early involvement with engineering partners so you can set the scope of the project. Happens all the time and, bill, with your history, you might have a bit further background, but it seems like this project type just simply demands teamwork in it, and it has, at least as long as I've been working on it.

Bill McKoskey:

Yeah, I think we all bring a different expertise to the table. In my case, you know we understand cost pretty well. We also understand constructability pretty well. So with the Dunham's design we can hopefully comment along the way and make sure we're still hitting the budget. We want to hit and make sure everything fits in. All of my BIM designers are actual union installers, so they have a very good understanding of how the parts and pieces go together and we model it that way just to make sure it's all going to work. So that's kind of the value the contractor brings into this early in the game.

Nicolas Igl:

Yeah, I think what you get is the best of everything. You have each team member doing what they do best. Building on that MEP design side, we can focus more, focusing on what is the right design, what are the right parts and pieces that we need in order to meet the requirements that we set in the previous discussion. So we can focus on the engineering. And having a team member like Bill on board is great because it helps us to bounce off different impacts and different concepts that we could do to understand what the cost implications, construction timeframe whatever the construction timeframe effects we might have.

Nate Roisen:

Yeah, it frequently is the case where there'll be a project and the owner knows that they need to be doing something in the space to earn money by a certain point in time. Right, and so they'll. They'll say the space needs to be operational in 18 months, or four months, depending on on the project type. And that's where that idea of pulling in the contractor to understand time and cost becomes incredibly important. You just can't really know what you're dealing with until someone that knows what it takes to install a sophisticated set of piping systems and qualify them and so forth is telling you what it'll take. And it always seems to be a challenge to figure out how to make challenging schedules work, but without the contractor's input it's just impossible.

Bill McKoskey:

Not unusual for us to be installing the underground plumbing while the above ground mechanical systems are still being figured out, usually because the owner hasn't necessarily figured out what they want. But if you want to meet that end date, you need to start at an appropriate time, and that means you're probably starting before the design is done.

Matt Gerstner:

I'm hearing rapid pace of schedule for this, not a traditional, if you will schedule for construction or design and development, for that matter.

Nate Roisen:

And it gets into a world of you know our clients are. A lot of times they're publicly traded companies and so you know the second they commit a big chunk of money to a building project. Wall Street notices, big investors notice, and it's a challenge on their end to get the project funded and they need to prove a return on that investment really quickly. And so that just seems like every project that we work on is operating under some parameter of time and that becomes a normal operating procedure on our end to work around and think creatively about how you can work with the client to meet those budgets.

Bill McKoskey:

Another challenge we've had more recently is equipment procurement. At times rooftop units or chillers. They know they might be, you know, a year and a half out. So you need to buy these pieces of equipment just so that you have them at the right time to install them. And again, that probably precedes the completion of the design. So a Dunham will put out early procurement packages, which probably has that underground plumbing that we talked about, but also all of the long lead equipment rooftop units, air compressors, chillers. It's probably even a bigger deal on the electrical side. Some of that gear is generators, can be two years out. So you need to be thinking about that stuff early.

Nate Roisen:

Which puts a lot of pressure on the team that's trying to figure out how big this building needs to be in the first place. Right, and you know there's a real challenge early on, and I have to sing Nick's praises on one particular project where he told us he needed a 1200 square foot chiller room and that chiller room ended up at 1200 square feet and it works just right. It's not too big and it didn't have to change in design. And a big part of us being able to meet a challenging schedule on that particular project was the fact that we were able to pin the MEP system rooms into the plan with a high degree of confidence that their size was pretty darn close to right. That takes some experience and it takes some knowledge and trust from the MEP team and the architectural team working together to make something like that happen. You can't order a unit if you don't know how big the space is that it has to fit in.

Nicolas Igl:

Yeah, a lot of that is building. It's building the system type based upon knowledge of this product type and this type of building that we're building. So in order to get the early procurement you know some of those initial questions that we ask the owner we start building the size of the equipment right away.

Matt Gerstner:

I'm going to just take a step back for a second here. So for some of our listeners tuning into an architecture and design podcast, they may be asking why are we talking so heavily about MEP for high tech? So when we're thinking about a high tech building, how much space does MEP actually take up? Because I'm guessing that is an important driving factor even for this podcast.

Nate Roisen:

I like to think of it when you open up the hood of your car and you look at the engine and there's like tubes running everywhere and parts and pieces and they all kind of fit snugly together. I think our projects in the science and tech market are like a car at 100 times the scale where if you could pull the roof off our building and look down in it, it would be just like looking at an engine, where there's all kinds of different things overlapping on each other rooms relating to each other in specific ways, circulation systems, so on and so forth. And it's not that there's a specific percentage, that's MEP space, it's that the entire project is MEP space. It's all about trying to get that arrangement of these different systems to work so that there's a harmony and a connection between everything that works and is serviceable and is affordable and all these other different things we need to do.

Bill McKoskey:

The building is just an enclosure for my mechanical system.

Nate Roisen:

That's a fantastic way to put it, and I used to be offended when I heard people say the longer I work in this system, the more I nod my head and I go yeah, exactly.

Matt Gerstner:

So, thinking about that then, Nate, I'm guessing that it's just we're on board just to try and make it all look real nice.

Nate Roisen:

No, it's, it's. It's more than that, matt, ok. Ok.

Nate Roisen:

There is an element of that, though, where, a th en o th d, it has to be a building that people want to work in, and so conversations about how do we bring daylight into the spaces, what does the break room look like, conversations about how do we bring daylight into the spaces, what does the break room look like, how do we get the break room as close as possible to the gowning room in the floor plan so that, when people are taking their break, they're not spending their time off work having to walk a mile to their break spot All those conversations are really important. It needs to work , but it's also about thinking about the building as a system, and architecture is a key part of the system. It needs to function, it needs to make sense, and we all need to think of ourselves, as those mechanical rooms that aren't pretty in the traditional sense at the end of the day are every bit as important and require all the attention to detail that you would give a public lobby or something like that.

Matt Gerstner:

And what you were saying then. What I hear also is that adjacencies is incredibly important for this type of project, from like staff movements to particular equipment needing to be in particular places in relation to other spaces.

Nate Roisen:

You know, at the end of the day there's also sophisticated equipment, manufacturing equipment that's going to go in these spaces, and so there will be, as those equipment vendors come on board, proliferations of their equipment. You'll start off and they'll say, oh, we have a vacuum pump we need for this piece of equipment, and then pretty quickly it's four vacuum pumps and then it's 10. And you're kind of left trying to figure out how to get these pieces into place. Having that knowledge or having that thought process up front is also really important. How do we build that flexibility in so that as the owner equipment comes on board, they have the space they need and the flexibility to make those connections and actually do the work they need to do in the building?

Bill McKoskey:

And the flexibility to change that tool out in six months, because the technology changes so quickly in semiconductor and med tech that what we're installing day one probably isn't even in the building day. You know three, four and five.

Nicolas Igl:

Sometimes we don't even know exactly what tools are going to be installed in the building until we get closer to the end of construction. So as we think through what services we might need to serve these individual tools, we have to provide some level of flexibility or ability to add maybe additional specialty gases or pipe systems down the road.

Nate Roisen:

Or that scenario planning for what does it look like when the building grows? What footprint for major mechanical electrical equipment is just there, but empty on day one, so that when the building needs to double in size, you can bring another chiller online or whatever the piece of equipment might be. How does that work relative to the site and some of those other constraints that you inevitably run into? How are they going to actually build it when the building's operational and they need to expand it? What does that process look like and what decisions can you make up front to make that process easier? There's all that layer of information, too, that comes into play as you're thinking through these projects.

Nicolas Igl:

That starts to think a little bit Nate about how do you work in existing buildings, right? Because one of the big challenges we have when we come in and meet with new clients and they're doing their process right now and where you need to implement an addition or bring in additional tools and equipment, but we can't affect their manufacturing while that's happening, their manufacturing while that's happening. So that goes into a lot of discussion on either phasing mechanical systems installation or adding separate ones and cross-tying the mechanical systems back. So it's a process that needs to be completely thought through and sometimes that does drive where the systems and where the addition can occur on a building.

Bill McKoskey:

Another factor on these projects is redundancy. You know you lose a unit in an office building, people are uncomfortable, but if you lose a unit in a semiconductor fab or a med tech facility, you might be losing a million dollars an hour. So certainly, nick, you could probably comment better on it, but your designs incorporate a pretty good backup system for all parts and pieces.

Nicolas Igl:

The redundancy and resiliency is a big concern on these project types here and each client might have a different level of what they consider redundant right? Some people, if you have an N plus one fan in an air handler, you can still get along until you can get in and replace and fix that fan. Others require a complete redundant air handling unit and that's where we get in discussion of it. Is it a full size unit, so 100% capacity, or is it maybe two units at 75% capacity? The budgeting and impacts to the space planning is where all those discussions start to occur.

Bill McKoskey:

And that's where the contractor prices up both options and you present it to the owner and they can decide how to spend their money wisely.

Nate Roisen:

And it's never really a blank check either. As important as redundancy is, there's very few owners that are willing to say I'll pay whatever it takes to be fully backed up. A lot of times, when they see what it takes in terms of the size of the generator or the number of units, they go okay. Let's have a value discussion here about the cost benefit and the risk versus the possibility, and I think that's really where the design team is a valuable voice to be able to work through those trade-offs, bring some perspectives from other clients, other approaches, and kind of find the thing that fits the budget, fits the piece of equipment, going down thinking that there is a two year lead time to get a replacement for it and that would be when you're talking millions of dollars a day, as you mentioned, Bill, in losses If they have to shut down, that is you can't support that in your business.

Matt Gerstner:

It's the redundancy I can hear is absolutely critical. Is there any other advice that you would have for owners that are heading into a project of this type?

Nate Roisen:

We started talking about existing buildings a minute ago and then the conversation switched. But existing buildings in general are challenging. An existing building that might be on the market and relatively affordable, and the client sees it as an attractive offer, but it takes a lot of work to get it up to speed and knowing what kind of work it'll take and the smallest little things can trip you up. The energy code has changed since the 80s, so there might be a building that requires a lot of additional insulation in order to meet current energy codes. The slope of the roof might not be advantageous to what you want to be doing in the future state, and so you have to do a lot of work to upgrade the roof in order to get the work in the spaces below away from things like roof drains and so forth. So some of those really nuanced small details can pose huge challenges when you're working in an existing building. So going in with your eyes wide open and really thinking through and understanding what you've got in front of you is incredibly important.

Nicolas Igl:

One of the other challenges with an existing building really has to do with the vertical height. We've been talking a lot about space planning. When you think of looking down at a building, where does the mechanical systems reside? But really that distribution and how much room we need above that ceiling can be a big challenge if you're going into an existing building, because a lot of these buildings might have a 12-foot clear height there. But typically with these types of buildings we'll need something on the order of 14 foot plus, depending upon what type of room we're putting in there, and that's assuming a more traditional 8 to 10 foot ceiling there. Some of these semiconductor facilities we will have all the mechanicals located above, so all the air handlers located above, feeding down into a plenum and then recirculate down, even to a sub fab and then come back up and around. So you might have a three-story building and really only one floor of it is actual production space.

Bill McKoskey:

I think my advice to an owner would be to seriously consider a design assist concept, which is crazy selfish. I know being the contractor, but I do believe there's a lot of value in bringing the contractor on board early so that they can share their expertise. Certainly, there's a lot of trust that goes along with that, so hopefully you have a trusted contractor in your backyard. The concept's been great for a lot of projects that these three firms have worked on together.

Matt Gerstner:

Well, I can certainly see the benefit in that, and when you had mentioned earlier about being able to just start to throw numbers at things as things are being designed, just having that skill on the team and that set of information as you're trying to design and things are actually going in the ground as you're still designing, and being able to rapidly come through with numbers and information, I can see that being critical for a client.

Nate Roisen:

Yeah, and thinking through on the other end of the timeline, as the client is doing their pro forma for the project and deciding how much money they can spend and how much product they need to make to recoup their investment Having the production people really, really aligned with what the leadership is asking for in terms of money. Product translates into money. It is an incredibly important thing If a project has been sold to a leadership group as being able to make a thousand things a year and the production people say that there's no way we can only make 750, that's a huge disconnect that before you even think about hiring a designer or a contractor, you need to be on the same page. It sets ourselves up for real challenges if we're constantly chasing an unrealistic production goal or maybe not even unrealistic, that might not be the right word but a ambitious production goal that the client's team isn't fully bought into.

Matt Gerstner:

So, in thinking about the entire project, we've talked about construction process, we've talked about design process, but what about operations and maintenance?

Nicolas Igl:

When you start to think about operation maintenance, you need to be able to sit down and talk with the facility's personnel as part of the design process. You need to be able to understand what their specific requirements are, what they deal with on a day-to-day basis, what some of their hot-button items are or what issues they typically see, so that you can have them addressed and designed into the mechanical solution for the project.

Bill McKoskey:

And I think if you have a 3D project and you have a BIM savvy engineering contractor, you can actually fly through the model with that maintenance engineer and talk about here's where the valves are when you have a leak, here's where you close them and here's your access for filter change-outs, so that they can participate in those decisions early on, Anytime. They're part of the decision. They're going to like the end product that much more so it's great to pull them in early, walk them through the model and have them be part of the team.

Matt Gerstner:

I can see that being beneficial too, just in that they're there daily and in their process they are seeing things that do need maintenance, that do need adjustments, more frequently than we're aware of.

Bill McKoskey:

They probably have a scenario now where they're doing it unsafely.

Nate Roisen:

So it's great to get their perspective on how to do it not only efficiently but also safely, whether it's changing a filter or changing a motor or a belt or whatever it happens to be. And I think there's a lot of exciting things that I'm hearing about in terms of how computing power can help facilities, people maintain their building and ultimately translates into design concepts. But if you have an artificial intelligence system that is geared towards a specific set of operations, a computer can monitor a lot more sensors than a person can and being able to flag items for attention. But you can have 10 times the sensors but the same person can keep the same eye on them with the assistance of a computer system. Some of that stuff gets incredibly exciting because it only creates more opportunities for efficiency and for energy savings and really valuable things that can come out of that. So I'm excited to see where things end up here over the coming five, 10 years as those systems come online and we start to grapple with them in the design phase.

Matt Gerstner:

Do any of you have any stories of challenges or lessons learned that may help some of our clients or people thinking about you know they've got a project coming up that they need to need to do something with.

Nicolas Igl:

One lesson learned that I would say I've came across in my career really has to do with setting the design requirements your temperature, humidity in this space and making sure you keep that in mind, especially when we go through the VE process. This particular project the owner had low temperature, low humidity requirements and we gave them the design and then we weren't involved, dunham wasn't involved with the VE approach on it, and the contractor that was involved said I can save you a million dollars if we put a DX gas-fired air handler up here. And then they went that route, got the construction done and then called us up and said, hey, it doesn't work. And we said, well, how's that desking system working? And they said we don't have one. We beat it out of the project. So it's understanding what your requirements are and that the equipment meets that and keeping that in mind while you're trying to save money.

Matt Gerstner:

You can't just VE things out without really figuring out what you're taking out and what the impact is going to be, and the design team is going to be critical in that function.

Nicolas Igl:

Yeah, we're all here to help and get you to the right solution with understanding what the budget and the operational impacts might be.

Bill McKoskey:

It's important that every VE idea has a list of pros and cons because, again, it's the owner's money. They got to figure out how to spend it and they may be willing to take some risks on RH, but not always. Sometimes you have limits that you got to be careful. I've been doing this so long and I don't know if anyone has ever said this job is under budget. It just doesn't happen. So VE happens on every single project. So they're certainly making sacrifices of some sort to save a few bucks and if it's short-sighted you get in that scenario like Nick described and it probably would have cost 10 times to add it after the fact than it would have been to install it initially correctly.

Matt Gerstner:

Well, that's something I don't think a lot of owners realize that when you're designing something and you have that price for it, that price is the price for going in the first time. If you take something out of that equation and you start the construction process, when it comes back and you realize you need it and it's coming in after the fact, it's not the same cost. In a lot of cases that cost goes up because there's all sorts of work that needs to change now.

Nate Roisen:

As I think about our most successful projects, the ones that come to mind are the ones that had the most engaged staff from a client standpoint.

Nate Roisen:

It takes a lot of work to run a building or to do the work or the lab testing or the production work in one of these facilities, and so it's not easy to say, at the end of your 40 or 50 hour a week job, come answer a bunch of questions from a design team. But the more space that's built into those people's schedule to actually do it, the better the end result will be. We need that engagement with the client right up front and really that's a leadership decision. Right as folks are thinking about getting a project kicked off, they need to be thinking about their people being really engaged with the design so that the end product is as good as it can possibly be.

Bill McKoskey:

It's a great example. You need to somehow free them up because they're busy with their day job. How are they going to help build an addition or a new plant?

Nate Roisen:

Well, and it's the leadership that needs to free them up. The leaders of the organization need to make sure their people have the space to make good decisions or work with us to make good decisions.

Matt Gerstner:

So I just want to thank you all for joining us today. This conversation has been enlightening. There's a lot that goes on when we're looking at high-tech spaces. There's a lot of information, there's a lot of knowledge that needs to be shared and they're very complicated. So thank you all for your time and insights. Appreciate all your time today. Thanks for the opportunity, thank you. This has been Side of Design from BWBR, brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today, give us a like, leave us a comment or, better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign at bwbrcom.