Side of Design
A podcast from BWBR, for those with a craving to take their organizations and spaces to new heights, with a side of design. We explore topics and issues affecting how we heal, learn, work, research, play and pray with those whose passion and expertise centers on the spaces that enable us to do all of that.
Side of Design
Designing a Career Path: Navigating Unexpected Professional Journeys
The path to professional fulfillment isn't always a straight line, and the stories of some of our BWBR team members prove just that. In the latest episode of Side of Design, host Matt Gerstner and three BWBR colleagues share their fascinating journeys of career transformation, revealing how seemingly unrelated experiences can shape unique perspectives and lead to rewarding careers in unexpected places.
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Matt Gerstner: 0:00
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry.
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Side of Design, where we explore the many facets of architecture, design, and the people behind the work. I'm Matt Gerstner, your host for this episode.
Today's episode is all about career paths and how they don't always go the way we first expect. Many of us start out with a clear vision of where we're headed, only to take a few unexpected turns along the way, and sometimes those twists lead us to something even better than we originally planned.
I know this firsthand because my own career has been anything but a straight line. I started out earning my associate degree in architectural technologies from a two-year school thinking I was set for a career in drafting and technical detailing. My first job was at a hollow metal manufacturing company, where I worked as a drafts-person and project manager for eight years. From there, I moved into the architecture industry, applying my skills as a CAD drafter and BIM technician, working on highly complex projects and solving intricate technical challenges. Over time, I became a go-to person for troubleshooting BIM files and navigating complex modeling issues.
But throughout my career, there was always another side to me, one that had nothing to do with architecture. I had a deep passion for music. I played guitar in bands, recorded music, ran a DJ company with a couple friends and spent years immersed in the creativity of music and production. That creative side was just as much a part of me as my technical work in architecture.
Then one day at BWBR I noticed a colleague working on a video animation at a dedicated video editing station. Something about it caught my attention so I stopped to ask about it. The process seemed familiar, similar in a way to editing music. I was intrigued enough to ask if I could set up a time for a demo. What started as a simple curiosity turned into something more.
Slowly I found ways to assist with video editing projects in the office. I started filming colleagues for meetings and presentations, taking on small AV projects here and there for marketing and communications. Over time that side work grew. I began working on creative video projects for special events within the company and even took on side projects for non-profits that I was connected with. I found as much enjoyment in this work as I did with music.
Matt Gerstner: 2:31
Then came another shift. The firm started doing more in-house knowledge building, where training and information sessions were recorded, and needed to be edited and hosted on an internal intranet site. My role in video production expanded even further and over the next decade my responsibilities grew until my current career officially took off. I was promoted to Senior Communication Specialist, where I now manage in-house AV for conference rooms, oversee multiple learning program AV efforts for editing and in-house distribution, produce video content for social media and our company website and, of course, host and produce this podcast.
I was able to find a mix of passions in my daily life that had similarities. I was able to build upon my skills I already had that brought even more value to what I was doing at BWBR. Skills and work where I still find myself falling into a flow and getting lost in what I'm doing at times because I enjoy it.
Matt Gerstner: 3:30
And that's just my story. It's one of many at BWBR where people have taken unexpected paths to get to where they are today. I know I'm not alone. There are so many people in architecture, design, and beyond who started out in one lane and found themselves thriving in a completely different one.
In this episode we're diving into some of those stories You'll hear from my colleagues, Danielle, Rasa, and Kari, who, like me, began in one place and ended up somewhere else, sometimes in a different role, sometimes in a whole new field.
We'll talk about what it's like to shift gears, what we've learned along the way and why embracing the unexpected can lead to a more fulfilling career path. Whether you're early in your journey or considering a career shift, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it.
First up, I sat down with Danielle Hilmo and heard her story for the first time, where she literally went across the world to wind up at BWBR.
Matt Gerstner: 4:35
I'm just going to start by asking you to introduce yourself to our listeners.
Danielle Hilmo: 4:36
My name is Danielle Hilmo. I am a marketing manager at BWBR and I've been here for 25 years.
Matt Gerstner: 4:43
Fantastic. So, you've got a good range of experience here, but I hear that you have a unique path to getting here, so let's go back. What did you go to school for? What did you start with?
Danielle Hilmo: 4:56
Yeah. So, since I was six years old, I had wanted to be an actor, and I did end up attending the New York University for a year my freshman year in drama at the Tisch school of the arts. So after that year I internally realized maybe acting actually isn't for me, but it was a total crisis because I never considered doing anything else. So I moved back to Minnesota thinking, okay, well, I just can't afford New York.
Matt Gerstner: 5:30
Right, right, that's a super common thing, right.
Danielle Hilmo: 5:34
So I went to the University of Minnesota and after, it was quarters back then, after a quarter, I was sort of like I don't know. So I took an anthropology class, just on a whim.
Matt Gerstner: 5:45
Okay.
Danielle Hilmo: 5:46
And then I loved the professor who taught that class and I found it really interesting. No plan I decided to major in anthropology because it was interesting.
Matt Gerstner: 5:56
Right, right.
Danielle Hilmo: 5:59
So then, after that I minored in Japanese, yeah, went to Japan and taught English in Japan for a couple of years.
Matt Gerstner: 6:07
Oh, wow!
Danielle Hilmo: 6:12
Yeah, yeah, it was great, Loved living in Japan. Thought oh yeah, I'll get like a master's degree in English as a second language, or become a translator or something. Well, my language skills never got good enough to be any kind of interpreter or translator, and then I came back here and I was like I don't really want to go back to school.
Matt Gerstner: 6:31
Right right.
Danielle Hilmo: 6:31
So the first job that was interesting to me and I was able to get was an administrative assistant at the Leonard Parker Associates, which was a boutique architecture firm.
Matt Gerstner: 6:43
Okay.
Danielle Hilmo: 6:44
And eventually moved into marketing there and then transitioned over to BWBR after a couple of years of that. I was an administrative assistant at first and then moved into marketing.
Matt Gerstner: 6:56
Incredible, incredible. So did you find that okay, one the anthropology degree, Did you find that things you've learned, skills you developed during that, have passed through into your later career at all?
Danielle Hilmo: 7:10
Yeah, so really interesting. I didn't realize until I was about 40. What do acting anthropology and marketing all have in common is that it's about figuring out what makes people tick.
Matt Gerstner: 7:26
Okay.
Danielle Hilmo: 7:26
And then seeing what motivates people, groups of people, cultures. So there's not only cultures of countries or cultures of ethnic groups, there's corporate cultures. And trying to figure out, getting in their heads and then figuring out how to connect with them. That's the marketing part.
Matt Gerstner: 7:47
That's fantastic. It sounds like, I mean, that's a very unique way to go through things. You know acting, anthropology, the English arts and then teaching as well.
Danielle Hilmo: 7:59
Yeah.
Matt Gerstner: 7:59
So, do you find that the teaching aspect of what you did helps in your career now.
Danielle Hilmo: 8:04
You know, I never really thought of it that way. I get a lot out of mentoring and teaching people. Yeah, I get a lot out of mentoring and teaching people. I mentor high school students in a program to promote architecture, construction and engineering right now. I think it does help with the communication and also the translation of these concepts into a layperson's terms, because often people who are really great at their specialty start talking in the lingo and then it makes it harder for just average people to understand them.
Matt Gerstner: 8:38
Absolutely. I can see that because you get, when you're so in deep in what you do, you don't necessarily think that other people may not understand what you're talking about.
Danielle Hilmo: 8:48
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Gerstner: 8:49
Totally, totally get that Well, that's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your career path with us and wish you all the best.
Danielle Hilmo: 8:55
Thanks, Matt.
Matt Gerstner: 8:56
Next, I had a great conversation with Kari Schonblum, who started out in architecture school but found a different, more fulfilling path along the way. Thanks for joining me today, Carrie, and just wondering if you could introduce yourself to our listeners.
Kari Shonblum: 9:11
Sure Kari Schonblum. My role at BWBR is knowledge manager. I've been here about two years, but I've been in a similar role to this for 10 plus years.
Matt Gerstner: 9:22
Okay.
Kari Shonblum: 9:22
And that's probably all I need to say.
Matt Gerstner: 9:29
Alright! So that's your current role. But you didn't start there, so let's go back. What did you go to school for?
Kari Shonblum: 9:35
So I went to school for architecture.
Matt Gerstner: 9:38
Okay.
Kari Shonblum: 9:39
Went to the University of Minnesota, Big school, that's usually where you can find architecture programs oh yeah um and I felt like I was not in alignment. My senior year I didn't feel in alignment with what I was doing and. I didn't know what to do next.
Matt Gerstner: 9:56
I think a lot of people find themselves in that situation, right? So you hit that, that moment where you weren't sure where you were going. What happened then?
Kari Shonblum: 10:06
Well, everyone else in my program had been applying to the master's program, right? Because the University of Minnesota's format was undergraduate degree and then master's program.
Matt Gerstner: 10:16
Right.
Kari Shonblum: 10:17
And I knew I didn't want to pursue the master's program at that time, so I was trying to evaluate my other options, and I wound up working at a construction company.
Matt Gerstner: 10:27
Okay.
Kari Shonblum: 10:27
Got in the door basically because I had AutoCAD skills. Revit was an emerging thing. I didn't have a chance to learn on that. When I was in school that was reserved for the master's level. That's like how new it was. Really the new technology reserved for the master's level, that's like how new it was. The new technology was for the master's level students, and got in started doing some drafting and stuff and got the chance to work on some marketing materials and that really opened up my eyes to some other opportunities and what my skill sets could be utilized for.
Matt Gerstner: 11:01
Okay, okay. So you went into the field in the broad sense with the construction side of it. So you found that you found the marketing side of things and how did that transition? How did that play into your progress?
Kari Shonblum: 11:19
I learned what I liked about it. Some of it came innately. Right, because the marketing collateral that I worked on was a brochure, because this company was not advertising their names. It was just word of mouth is how they were getting new business.
Matt Gerstner: 11:32
Oh, wow.
Kari Shonblum: 11:33
So it was like let's look at the collateral that we have and it was put together by just some office staff. They didn't have overhead for marketing staff or anything like that.
Matt Gerstner: 11:41
Okay.
Kari Shonblum: 11:42
And I had the opportunity to put together a brochure where I got to go out and take photographs of the projects, put together some stuff. I will admit in hindsight it was probably very amateur work but it was really compelling to me because it was problem-solving on a smaller scale. Because in architecture school you're learning to think about this whole building and this user experience and it's this big long process and you have to have the stamina for that and my brain tended to like to break down into smaller problems, not that you can't do that in architecture, but I just resonated with the quicker turn of the marketing type stuff. There's a faster result.
Kari Shonblum: 12:19
I spun that job, I then worked for 3m for a bit okay and a marketing analyst role, which was um fun to see how a big corporation works right.
Matt Gerstner: 12:33
I'm sure there were significant differences between them.
Kari Shonblum: 12:37
Significant, Yeah, it was a lot of fun to see how that um, how what a marketing role looked like there and it was very clearly defined between marketing and sales and um, seeing how it all worked together, and I had the opportunity to take that experience and come back to an architecture firm okay and work in a marketing role, and for anyone that's interested in architecture like spending time in the marketing department is so valuable.
Matt Gerstner: 13:02
Okay, why would you say that?
Kari Shonblum: 13:05
You learn about the business of architecture. You learn about the strategy. You start to see all the parts and pieces come together. And it was in that role which is what spawned my current knowledge management role. Because you have such a need to communicate the past work that you've done and the value that you've provided, you have to find ways to document and share that and translate it and amplify it. So that was sort of the genesis for me, because knowledge management when I was entering college that wasn't a degree that you could get.
Matt Gerstner: 13:40
Right, I was going to say the same thing Knowledge management, even in our current office it's not new, but it hasn't been around a long time by any means.
Kari Shonblum: 13:53
A lot of people don't necessarily know what the term means. They don't necessarily know what a knowledge manager does? It can be different firm to firm, which is pretty cool because you can make it your own thing and respond to the needs of the firm.
Matt Gerstner: 14:05
Okay.
Kari Shonblum: 14:06
But the things that I learned along the way, all stemming from architecture school was learning how to package ideas and present them.
Kari Shonblum: 14:15
You're soliciting feedback, you're understanding the root of the problem and you're understanding user experience and user needs and translating that to marketing. Right, you're just shifting who your audience is, but you're still packaging and delivering a message. Um, and I continue to do that with the knowledge management stuff. I have to find the what's in it for me. Care about what I'm doing, because I'm trying to help make your life easier or help you so you don't have to spend so much of your time doing repetitive stuff like training in someone new. Let's find ways to package that to make it easier, and then it becomes something that's searchable, something that other people can go and find on their own. Let's start to build that knowledge base.
Matt Gerstner: 15:02
Yeah.
Kari Shonblum: 15:02
So it's not so reliant on your network of people that you know and navigating a system, because that was something I definitely saw at 3M you kind of had to know how the big Goliath worked.
Matt Gerstner: 15:16
Oh, I'm sure.
Kari Shonblum: 15:17
They had a lot of procedures, a lot of process, but you still kind of had to know who to talk to to get things done Right, Sort of the unspoken how to navigate.
Matt Gerstner: 15:28
Things that weren't necessarily documented and how the process functioned.
Kari Shonblum: 15:32
Yeah. Those are some of the skill sets that I feel like translate.
Matt Gerstner: 15:36
Okay. So looking back at that, I mean that's definitely a unique career path, even though it was all technically within architecture, construction in the same field. You know, even though architect to knowledge management, significantly different roles within a company. So what kind of advice would you offer to people that are on a questionable career path for themselves? They're questioning is this what I want to do?
Kari Shonblum: 16:05
I would say for myself it was listening to the signals in the noise, like finding the things that drew my attention, naturally the things that I found myself easily working on. It wasn't a chore like I could get started. That was one of my things in architecture school. I found it hard to be creative in the way that they wanted me to be creative in the moment.
Kari Shonblum: 16:30
I had to marinate on the ideas and it just didn't come as easily to me as other folks, you know, drawing out concepts and creating models and things like that and that's where I felt out of alignment. But digging into things like data and trying to find trends and understanding how people think and operate yeah that kind of stuff energizes me. So paying attention to those things like what can you sit down and do and not realize that an hour has passed versus it's a grind?
Kari Shonblum: 17:04
You're sitting there forcing yourself to get something done. So if you can find ways to package up and distill, what is that thing that keeps me interested? And then find more things like that.
Matt Gerstner: 17:20
Honestly that's a great description. It's kind of like falling into those things where it's a flow state. You lose track of what you're doing or what the time was while you're doing this thing, because it is enjoyable, it's easy to get to. Personally, I relate to that.
Kari Shonblum: 17:34
And we're all going to have things that you have to grind through. It's just part of the working world, but if you can find more of the things where you can get into your flow.
Matt Gerstner: 17:44
Yeah.
Kari Shonblum: 17:45
That's just that much better.
Matt Gerstner: 17:46
Well, fantastic. Thank you for joining me today. I really appreciate your time.
Kari Shonblum: 17:46
Thanks, Matt.
Matt Gerstner: 17:47
And lastly, I was so happy to talk with Rasa Zeltina, who had such a strong passion for music that she started her career path majoring in it, and yet, was looking for something more.
Rasa. Thank you so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?
Rasa Zeltina: 18:07
Yeah, I am Rasa Zeltina and I've been at BWBR for 10 years. I've had a few different roles, but right now I am administrative coordinator, focusing on sustainability efforts within our practice.
Matt Gerstner: 18:19
That's fantastic. Sustainability is such a hot topic for our entire industry.
Rasa Zeltina: 18:23
Yeah, it's really exciting for me to be involved with it.
Matt Gerstner: 18:27
Wonderful, wonderful. So we have an idea now of where you're at, but let's go back to the beginning and let's talk about where you started. What did you go to school for?
Rasa Zeltina: 18:36
Yes, so I went to school for two things, For music. My major was saxophone performance and Russian, and those were just interests I'd had since I was a kid, Like music was always my favorite class in high school stuff like that.
Rasa Zeltina: 18:51
So I decided to pursue them in college. Yeah, and I studied abroad in college in Russia for a half year and I really loved that. So I was kind of pursuing my passions. And then after college I taught music lessons for probably five, six years private music lessons, and I did a bit of performing as well, and in between that I also went to grad school for music.
Matt Gerstner: 19:13
Okay, okay,
Rasa Zeltina: 19:13
But then at some point I kind of realized that music probably wasn't going to be a viable long-term career path for me. I was really craving stability, and although I saw others going on to find fulfilling careers in music, I think I probably didn't have the right combination of passion and talent to really make that happen.
Matt Gersdtner: 19:36
Really? Okay.
Rasa Zeltina: 19:36
Yeah so that was fine. I mean, it was actually hard to deal with at the time, but it was fine. Twists and turns can happen in life, so at that point I decided I needed to find some other kind of employment and, like I said, I really craved stability. So I ended up getting a job with a company that makes paints and coatings as a sourcing analyst totally kind of out of left field. But what really that did is I got that stability that I was craving. I got predictable hours and benefits and all those things that I really wanted and I also got some really great experience in an office setting getting some skills that I could put on a resume.
Rasa Zeltina: 20:00
Yeah, I can see how that would be significantly different from performing, teaching and having that schedule and having the, you know, all the things that come along with having a 9-to-5 type job.
Rasa Zeltina: 20:28
It was kind of a 180. And so I decided, okay, I want to take the good from this situation and try to find a company that I really am interested in and really kind of jive with. And so, as an undercurrent to all these years of teaching music lessons and trying out different things, one constant was that I've always loved architecture. Just, I've been an appreciator of architecture. At one point I had an internship with the Chicago Architecture Center. I lived in Chicago for several years and I had an internship there. And then also I spent a couple years as a tour coordinator for an organization in Minnesota called Preserve Minneapolis. They do walking tours. So I've really always loved historic architecture, old buildings, historic preservation.
Rasa Zeltina: 21:17
But, then I also was coming to appreciate more modern architecture as well. Okay, so I thought to myself I really just want to work in an architecture firm because I love this and I don't have a background in it professionally but I love it.
Rasa Zeltina: 21:29
And luckily I found BWBR and it's a great firm in this industry that I had an interest in. So that was 10 years ago and I've just been doing various things since then within the firm and I feel like I really, like I said, in the last couple of years have been able to focus in on some of the sustainability things that I have a personal interest in as well, and also there's a firm and industry need to really work on that.
Matt Gerstner: 21:56
Very fascinating, so I'm going to ask a question, might not be the easiest one to answer but how do you feel your, studies and your majors helped you get into that first job at that company where you found your stability. What things do you think trickled through, if you will?
Rasa Zeltina: 22:20
Right, that's a good question, and I think it is a little bit tough to answer. I don't think there certainly aren't that many transferable hard skills.
Matt Gerstner: 22:29
Right right.
Rasa Zeltina: 22:30
But I think if there were one thing, it might be a resourcefulness. I think when you're a musician and you're trying to make that lifestyle work, you have to be a little bit scrappy sometimes and find ways to make it all work out and to make ends meet and create opportunities that might not be obvious. And I think a little bit of that mindset may have been helpful in trying to pivot and advocate for myself in making a change.
Matt Gerstner: 23:00
Yeah, I can see that. I can see how that would be beneficial, having that voice for yourself when you speak up. Yeah, Very, very good. So what kind of advice do you think you would give to someone else who might be just starting out, maybe even in the middle of a career and they're realizing they need to pivot.
Rasa Zeltina: 23:20
I would say, so sometimes I think we know we want to change, but we don't know what that change is, and I think I perhaps spent a little bit of time in analysis-paralysis where I was really examining all the options on the table and trying to find the perfect next career path for me, and it's hard when you're just these ideas live in your head, but you haven't tested any of them out.
Rasa Zeltina: 23:45
So one thing I wish I maybe had done a little bit sooner and would recommend is to pick something of interest, do some research, but then at a certain point, dive into action and decide on a direction to go.
Rasa Zeltina: 23:59
And you can give it several months and see how it goes and if maybe it's exactly what you had hoped for and you want to continue on the path. But if it's not, then you have that knowledge. Maybe you've learned something else along the way that you wouldn't have otherwise if you'd just been sitting back, you know, kind of shuffling through your options. So I would say just to take action and see where you get from there, and you can always pivot if you need to. And then, like I mentioned a little bit earlier as well, I think when you do have a non-linear career path, I think it's important to help people understand what your skills and your potential are, because it's not going to be obvious by looking at a resume. So when you mentioned, like, what are some of those things that you could take from music to help you in a later career, I think you have to identify those and then also help other people see that. So being yeah, being an advocate for yourself. I would say.
Matt Gerstner: 24:57
That's fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today, really appreciate it.
Rasa Zeltina: 24:59
Thanks Matt, It was fun.
Matt Gerstner: 25:03
I can't thank my colleagues enough for sharing their stories with us today, each one unique, and each had some insight to offer for anyone considering their career change. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Side of Design and I'll see you next time.
This has been Side of Design from BWBR, brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today, give us a like, leave us a comment or, better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com.