Side of Design
A podcast from BWBR, for those with a craving to take their organizations and spaces to new heights, with a side of design. We explore topics and issues affecting how we heal, learn, work, research, play and pray with those whose passion and expertise centers on the spaces that enable us to do all of that.
Side of Design
Accessible, Universal, Inclusive: Decoding Equity in Design
When BWBR's design team talks about creating spaces that "welcome and work for everyone," it isn’t PR speak or a feel-good talking point. They’re addressing one of architecture's most complex challenges. Truly equitable design requires intention and thoughtful consideration of elements that go far beyond code compliance.
Design Leader Lisa Miller, Interior Designer Katie Reed, and Senior Architectural Designer Josh Simma recently sat down to untangle the often-confused concepts of accessible, universal, and inclusive design. Their conversation reveals why these distinctions matter and how they're reshaping the way spaces get built.
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This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. Hello and welcome to Side of Design from BWBR. I'm your host, matt Gerstner. On every project we design, the goal is to create a space that welcomes and works for everyone, which sounds simple but actually opens up a huge array of considerations that must be taken into account. On today's episode, we'll be exploring accessible, universal and inclusive design, including their similarities and differences, real-world applications and the role codes and regulations play. Joining us today from BWBR is design leader Lisa Miller, interior designer Katie Reed and senior architectural designer Josh Sima. Welcome everyone, thanks for being here, we're here.
Matt Gerstner:Great to be here, matt, so let's just start with some quick definitions. What differentiates accessible design from universal design from inclusive design?
Lisa Miller:That's a great question, matt, and I want to start out by saying that this is something that I feel like. People use these terms interchangeably and while they might have similarities, they are distinctly different, and it's really important when we're thinking about spaces to know the differences and know really what we're trying to have as the end goal. So, accessible design and I'll read a couple of definitions here and see what we can come up with but accessible design is really designed that specifically addresses the needs of people with disabilities, and the goal of that is to ensure that the people with impairments like visual, auditory, motor, cognitive, etc. Can access and use the spaces that we design. So, specifically, that's what accessibility design is.
Lisa Miller:Universal design is a design that aims to be usable by all people to the greatest extent possible, without the needs for adaptation or specialized design. Think of universal design as a one size fits all. That's really that intent of universal design. And then, inclusive design is design that recognizes diversity and difference and intentionally includes as many people as possible, especially those who are often excluded, and the goal of that is to really create experiences that are usable and have a wide range of different people that can be in it, and we think about those different perspectives within the space. So we like to describe this one as making sure there's variety so that each person could find a space within you know the environments we build that suits them and that could work for them.
Lisa Miller:We like to think of them as a nested circle diagram. So your accessible design is your baseline, like that's your codes and regulations. That's making sure people can access the space. And then universal design maybe captures a little bit more people. But we know one size doesn't fit all, like children don't necessarily have the same ranges as adults. So you cannot design one space to fit children and adults like in one design. So you have to think of how you can make spaces and that's where we get to inclusive design that could fit both Um and so. That's kind of inclusive design will capture more and more people by providing more variety to do so.
Katie Reed:I'm going to take this one step further, and so Lisa talks about inclusive design and this diversity that we need to accommodate and be mindful of. So if you're thinking about a space and all the people that interact with the space and their environment, there's an incredible range of experience behind each person that's encountering that space. So if we think about a population, we want to be mindful of this diversity and we can kind of break it down into different buckets. So on surface level, we might first think of this main bucket of diversity. On surface level, we might first think of this main bucket of diversity. We might define it as age, race, gender, identity, those things that you first think of with diversity. For example, I would say I'm a female, I'm 28 years old, I'm looking at this space from that lens. Okay, Then we can take it and break it down even further. That once. Then we can take it and break it down even further. We have further buckets that we can look at when defining someone's experience in this space. So this next grouping we can look at education, income, marital status, their location.
Katie Reed:So I've always been based here in St Paul. That has an effect on where I go, who I see, how I interact in a space. And then we can take it another step and look at workplace where are we working? Where are we working with? What's our job level? And then even one step further how are we performing? What's our personality type? Again, my example I'm an introvert, so I'm going to look. I'm not in this space at home, I'm going to look for somewhere that I can really focus in and it's going to be quieter, maybe not coming out and talking as much. Yeah, so those are all dimensions that we need to really consider.
Lisa Miller:When we just one category and say this is who you are and we're going to give you one solution for that. We have to understand that people are so dimensional and that Katie and I are not the same. Josh and I are not the same. We never will be, and if we don't design and think about trying to just reach as many people as possible, we are going to leave people out and that is not our intention and we never want to do that. So we want to just try to get as many spaces and abilities and things within spaces that we design to help people out and make sure that our spaces that we design helps them be successful.
Josh Simma:I think layering on top of that as well again is the idea of the accessibility side of things and from a code perspective. You know we've got a long history of civil rights and our civil rights legislation, as you know, pulled in the accessibility code to get deal with those folks that have disabilities and may have problems with both vision and other mobile impairments. Stack that on top of the building codes and we have quite a set of tools to use.
Matt Gerstner:I mean, it sounds like there's a lot, of, a lot of things at our disposal that we can use, we can consider, when we're thinking about all three different levels of this. That's a that's wonderful Good to hear.
Lisa Miller:And I think one of the things, too, is all we, we strive so much to do this, but we do have to know that there are things that sometimes right people fall out of that circle and we have to just continually work at gathering resources, at talking about design, learning from people's lived experiences, to try to include and capture Maybe it's not the right word, but include as many people into that bubble of what you know. Design is Because there are some people that might be outliers. How do we reach them and how do we make sure that they feel comfortable? And that's why design evolves constantly.
Matt Gerstner:So yeah, I mean, design's never really done, is it? No, no. But we have deadlines. No, no, but we have deadlines. So what sort of design considerations and or outcomes might you see within? Each of these? Is like one better or is it more about the context and the project goals, you know? Do you have any like specific project examples, even?
Lisa Miller:Yeah, I'll take that one to start and then you can jump in. We do think one is better. I think inclusive design is always going to be better. The more people you can include, the better the space, the better the outcomes for everyone using them. Again, it's just kind of thinking about how accessibility and accessible design is your baseline. That's what you should be doing, because we have all those codes, we have ADA, and then how do you just find more people? One example of this that we like to think about is work surface. So your desk height Accessible design says that this has to be in order for someone to kind of work there. Josh, tell me what it is for a work surface height for an ADA wheelchair.
Josh Simma:Well, actually that's an interesting kind of segue a little bit too is just the idea that from a work perspective there's opportunities again to have a work surface that isn't accessible, and then that kind of falls under kind of Title I of the ADA or other sets of codes to make reasonable accommodations from an employer standpoint, and then we might leave that workspace so that the task we're doing might not require that counter to be at 2 foot 10, maybe it's up at 3 foot 4. Maybe I'm again I'm standing in the lab and I'm doing work in a pharmacy setting, but when my work is done maybe I go to the break room and in the break room I'm not working, I'm not doing a task that's related to my job, and then I'm going to encounter a work surface honestly not a work surface, but I'm going to kind of encounter a counter that needs to be at an accessible height based on a bunch of standards, and again that would be like that two foot ten at a maximum height in that setting.
Lisa Miller:So yeah, so accessible would be. You have to have that specific height to be accessible. Right Universal would say every counter that you have everywhere is the same height.
Matt Gerstner:Ok, be accessible right universal would say every counter that you have everywhere is the same height.
Lisa Miller:Okay, so not necessarily good not necessarily good, because sometimes, like josh was mentioning, you might need a standing height, right, but if you have it all at the same height, it's that. It's that idea. Universal is one size fits all, but it doesn't necessarily fit all because you might be doing different tasks. So we have to think of that. Inclusive design would be providing different options of heights but, even better, providing a height adjustable work surface at that space so you can adjust it per your needs. I think that's super important to kind of think about that evolution of what it could look like.
Katie Reed:So Lisa's not saying that every surface for inclusive design needs to be this height adjustable surface. Maybe our workstation that we're at for most of our day is that height adjustable. But then we're thinking about other furniture settings. Are we using laptop tables throughout the day If we're having a casual meeting? Coffee tables, other bar height or standing height options, so that throughout your space you have a breadth of different options for different types of workers and different abilities and different conversations that you're having or interactions that you're having. So just thinking about those layers like Lisa describes them, and thinking about the countertop example, I think can lend a hand into how we're thinking about the rest of the space and what we're designing.
Lisa Miller:And we know the height adjustability is more expensive. So if you are trying to balancing that, you could pick specific areas that would have the biggest impact. You know, maybe you pick a conference room. You could do a height adjustable table at a conference room. It's more expensive. But maybe you do one of those because you want to accommodate some more people versus none. They make coffee tables that are height adjustable. They make everything height adjustable.
Matt Gerstner:now, I wouldn't doubt it.
Lisa Miller:But we know that that can be expensive. So just picking areas that can make the most impact on the individuals in the space is really important, I think, to consider in design. Yeah.
Matt Gerstner:Do you have any real-world examples of this?
Lisa Miller:Well, katie and I worked on this project and this is maybe not so much about countertops, but Katie and I worked on this project. It was a workplace project, actually locally here in St Paul, and they did a phase one of this project and they wanted to do phase two. So one thing that they wanted to consider when they wanted to do phase two is they were working with a lot of clients coming in and they wanted their space to be a showcase for what their clients would then do for their clients if that makes sense and to kind of lead the way to say these are the things you need to think about when you're doing inclusive design.
Lisa Miller:So they actually had a lot of meetings with Katie and I to talk about what they wanted and what things that they wanted to consider.
Lisa Miller:So they actually brought some ideas to the table for us and we kind of had conversations.
Lisa Miller:One thing that we specifically did on phase one was we actually had carpet throughout their office space and the design of the carpet in phase one it had a difference of pile height.
Lisa Miller:So pile height is the thickness of the carpet tile and whether this does meet code. You can have a slight difference of carpet pile height, but we did notice that sometimes if you have a different gate or a slightly different way of walking, you kind of you could slip on it or you could not necessarily slip Maybe that's not a right word you can catch your shoe on it and so if you have some type of gait that causes that, you know there's a potential that it just affects someone differently and we don't want that. So in phase two we eliminated that difference of the pile height as an active way to be more inclusive to make sure that we're addressing kind of different people walking in the space, and then that's a story that they could use when talking with different clients in their space about subtle ways, tiny ways to reach more people and to affect more people by making it easier to use the space.
Matt Gerstner:Yeah, that's the exact word I was thinking. It's super subtle, like almost nobody is going to notice that kind of difference, that kind of change, but it can be very effective.
Lisa Miller:And you might not notice it until you somehow just are walking around and you, you trip a little bit. I mean I think we've all been on a sidewalk out in a public city where all of a sudden the plane changes a little and you trip. I mean I've done that, it's definitely fallen. Um, so we, we don't want any of those kind of things in our spaces that inhibit people just being able to be free and be comfortable in space?
Katie Reed:yeah, like impairing the mobility in a way, if you well, yeah we looked at the finishes at a more detailed level just to review, because we had these existing finishes carrying throughout the space. They want the space to feel consistent with their other floor. Um, so just re-evaluating the palette is there a use of bright colors and how are these bright colors used? Or the loud patterning? I wouldn't say there was loud patterning in this project, but lisa mentions the carpet right and the even simplifying that carpet patterning throughout the space.
Lisa Miller:We had meetings of different carpet patterning yeah, so we'd have like an angle or we would have. We actually had a gray tile and then a dark black tile. Okay, and we we learned that that dark black tile could look like a step to someone who has a visual impairment. Yeah, and so we eliminated that extra dark black tile out of the new pattern. Okay, to try to say, okay, we don't want anyone who has a visual impairment thinking there's a step there right, randomly, or a hole I think we all know what it feels like to miss a step going up or down they already had, like contrasting wall base, which is one of the things we talk about for visually impaired individuals.
Katie Reed:They need to be able to find their way through the space and that's one small element that oftentimes in workplace we're like matching the color of the wall to the wall base so it fades away. But we want to be mindful of those tiny details so that again we're capturing all those different experiences for individuals walking into the space. That's a great point.
Lisa Miller:hey, josh, is there any ada rule of contrasting wall base at all for visual impairment? I know there's, there is when you have like a stare, you know you need to have a contrasting nosing. But is there anything for wall base or any other?
Josh Simma:I don't know Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head from a color standpoint, for that means a contrast, again, like you're getting at the interesting thing of missing a step and taking a fall for sure on our treads from a contrasting standpoint within the code. But I can't think of anything off the top of my head that where there's a in the building code for accessibility or the ADA for contrasting base to assist. But again, the idea here of inclusion within our materials is so interesting because, kind of like as we're getting at here, we might also work on some projects where we as designers might be a little younger than the folks we're designing for and for us to sometimes put on a literally the lens of what, what might be someone's experience with cataracts. So if we're doing, uh, again, a nursing home or other kind of design standpoint, how might they experience that same color palette or interact with it? Or is there enough contrast for them to distinguish things?
Lisa Miller:Yeah, that's a great point. I think that that brings it back to this idea that we have accessibility and you have more of these rules, regulations, and then you have good practice, right, and you have the things that no one's telling you you have to do it this way, but we know as designers, it's good practice to try to include people and look at that lens, and I think that's what interior designers and designers do really well is to kind of put that lens on and try to think of someone else and their lived experience in our spaces.
Matt Gerstner:So I'm hearing all these different layers of rules and regulations up through good design practice, and what I'm curious about is how do the codes and regulations really play into this conversation then? Is this more on the rules and regulations side, josh? Do you want to fill us in on this?
Josh Simma:On the rules and regulation side is kind of interesting, and I think one of the ideas I like to approach often is the goal of both the Building Codes for Accessibility and the Americans with Disabilities Act is just basically trying to say, all right, everything in the design environment needs to be accessible.
Josh Simma:That's kind of the overlying goal and sometimes I think that's missed a little bit because there's so much verbiage. It kind of has looked at like well, these are the minimum standards and it's like well, not quite necessarily the minimum standards, but it's like these are a bunch of the exceptions to everything being accessible. Here's some provided reach ranges to ensure that we're accommodating, or here's some tactile signage to ensure that someone with visual impairment is able to navigate a space. So that's one of the things I'd just like to come back to again. Is that overarching goal Again that the accessibility code, accessibility code. While code is really trying to achieve a large bit of inclusion, it really wants everything to be accessible and then it kind of backs away with a bunch of technical requirements that I often think kind of muddy the waters a little bit for folks that's a great way to put it all together.
Lisa Miller:I love that well, and I I think that's something interesting that we like to talk about too is that sometimes there's contradictions. Yeah, you know, sometimes there are things that are muddy and sometimes there are things that are good practice. You know, like, for example, sometimes you know you want all spaces to be accessible, so you need that space for it to be accessible, accessible, be accessible, so you need that space for it to be accessible. But some people get uncomfortable in maybe a larger space and they will love to work in maybe a phone booth but, that phone booth isn't accessible.
Matt Gerstner:Right, right.
Lisa Miller:So you know you have a contradiction here of trying to provide spaces that maybe work for a certain type of work area or a certain type of person that maybe needs that comfort or that feeling of something maybe being a little bit smaller around them, but then you also have somebody who's like that's claustrophobic. So there's this balance of like so many things that almost contradict, and that's why inclusive design is about providing variety, so that we could try to get as many people as possible and provide spaces that as many people can go in them as possible. But not every space is exactly the same right, right, right, yeah.
Matt Gerstner:I mean I would say it's a lot of like building upon one one idea upon the other and trying to find that perfect inclusion, if you will.
Lisa Miller:But there might not be a. There might not be a perfect one, yeah, and at some point, as many people as we're going to get, there might be some outlier, and so that's why it's always important to learn from your projects, learn where those things are, so you can continually improve and evolve color palette.
Katie Reed:Honestly, a lot of trend right now is to have this muted, muted, soft color. That's kind of appeasing to everything that's brought in. You might have some pops here and there with artwork or accessories, but everything's kind of neutral and that that ages really well with this space. But we need to look at the other side. Who is performing well in those environments and who needs something more, who needs the opposite? So lisa and I are very different here. Maybe, maybe not. I think lisa's gonna sit with all the loud color and really really want that energy in the space, yeah, and I'm maybe again more reserved and I'm going to sit with those muted tones and feel more calm with those. Um, but we have just the two of us here that are on the spectrum of color and so incorporating five people, a hundred people, a thousand people, whatever it is, that's just one element. So it makes our jobs like this big, so hard, big mind game almost. But that's what we're getting at is we need to really think through every single detail.
Lisa Miller:It's that, it's that spectrum, right, katie's talking about the spectrum of people who need more simulation versus people who don't need as much simulation to be successful in work. Like Katie was saying, I need a lot. I love pattern, I love art, I love all of those things in space. My house is like I have a leopard print carpet, like I love things. I love stuff, right, but like someone else might be like this is too much for me, like I can't focus in here, I can't do my work, so we have to like build spaces that might have more pop for people like me, right, or spaces that are a little bit more muted and respite for people like Katie and like that's just something and that's just two, two people on the spectrum. You probably have something totally different. Matt Josh probably has something.
Matt Gerstner:All the walls of my house are white, so the art can stand out. See Every wall.
Lisa Miller:So it's more focused, right? So like I would be like I want a pink wall with like art on top of it. You know, yep Love that Totally.
Matt Gerstner:I totally get it. I totally get it. So now let's dig into stakeholder and user engagement just a little bit. So how do you balance all the competing needs and constraints on a project to get the most equitable outcome? It might not be perfect, but we're going for the most equitable outcome. How do we do that?
Lisa Miller:I think really we're the guide the designers and the design team are really the guide to try to understand One. You have to understand the client. You have to understand the users. You have to balance stakeholders needs, so not only the leadership's needs and the wants for a space but also the people that are there every day. You know, we have to just ask those questions about like kind of what makes sense and balancing branding and color and all those kind of things, by just really starting to ask the questions what are the needs? And narrow it down down, and we're really the advocates to maybe even bringing up some of those things, like with our office workplace client asking them.
Lisa Miller:You know, like okay, here are some things to think about when you start to think about inclusive design. You know what is important to you. Let's make sure we hit those important to you things and then if we could get some of the other good to haves then, then great. But we got to hit the things that are important to them. Whether it's, you know, maybe you have a healthcare where you have more of an aging population, then you definitely need to think of what Josh was talking about with the color. You have to think of yellowing of the eyes. You have to think of those things for that population versus, like, a children's design in healthcare. Yeah, it's different in that instance where you have to have things that pop for them. So, knowing your client, asking the good questions and bringing up ways that we can help and think about inclusive design is one way we can help to do that.
Matt Gerstner:I mean, it sounds like it's a whole layer of things going, because not only do you have to understand what your client does, what, what if they manufacture widget a yeah, that's their function but you have to understand all the different people in that space too, yeah, and how they do their job, and how they do their job best crazy we just need to make sure that we're having these conversations early too as well.
Katie Reed:Get that first conversation started and show, show them what we know about implementing these things. Um, that way they're on board and they can see it through the design process and that way the space feels, you can feel it in the design at the end yeah, yeah, we need to both kind of consensus build and assist in pushing boundaries.
Josh Simma:At the same time we have to kind of recognize that our design elements might involve some color or some ideas that aren't present and that might again maybe go against the current trend or ideas that someone has on a campus. And sometimes we also need to be cognizant too that we might be dealing with a very large facility that has many locations across the state and they're really trying to simplify things. They might not want to stock 25 different paint colors or maintain 30 different wall coverings. They may be looking to try to simplify as a way to help them for what they're trying to maintain as far as attic stock or other materials, as they're maintaining their facilities.
Matt Gerstner:I can totally see how that comes into play, especially when they're trying to balance budgets and make sure that. You know it's a little bit simpler in some ways.
Lisa Miller:We always say it's a balance. Yeah, it's a balance to find what's right for them and right for the client and the project. But you have to kind of pick and choose.
Matt Gerstner:Totally, and every client is going to be different in that respect too. So can you talk about challenges and successes that you've all seen with regard to implementing any of these design approaches?
Katie Reed:Thinking about this workplace project that we had. One strategy that we've come up with especially, you're either having an existing design that you're trying to play into or you're kind of building from the ground up. We want to evaluate each plane of whatever space we're in. So if we're looking at the floor design, are we considering pattern right? Are we considering floor texture? Are we considering that contrast? Are we looking at furniture and how that plays out? We had that discussion about countertops and just usability of the space. Yeah, then you're going to look at the wall planes. Are we using bright and bold colors? Are we using that loud patterning? Is there any reflectance? So, looking at each plane again, we can go to the ceilings as well, but looking at each plane and really breaking down which elements play in to the design in that plane makes it more manageable. Yeah, we can then have discussions about patterns and different options on the floor. We can have discussions about where we're highlighting space with color or wayfinding. So that's one strategy that we have.
Lisa Miller:I also think we, you know, on that project we were talking about, we picked a couple, we picked a couple to hit. We didn't we're not, we weren't like we're going to do not, we're like we're gonna do everything possible because, like we said, some of the challenges are they're contradicting information, right. So we had to pick a couple and we focused on the carpet, we focused on the base, we focused on the lighting was a kind of a glare, that an idea that there was a lot of glare in some of the spaces. Right, so, addressing the lighting in some of those spaces, so we really focus on what we could in that and I think that's what helps make it successful is that you, you have to pick and focus Right. You can't be like we're going to do everything I'll, it just doesn't work like that.
Matt Gerstner:That can be a mess of sorts Just trying to do too many things.
Lisa Miller:Sometimes you end up trying to do too many things and you end up with a white box, like you end up with just a boring space, because you're like we don't want to do anything, or that might feel this way or this might be do this, and then you just you just kind of lose specific design intent or special areas too. So I can see how that would happen. The balance goes back to that, totally, totally.
Josh Simma:A couple of things just popped to mind.
Josh Simma:I think, again from the idea of inclusion, we as designers do a great job of trying to really cast that wide net for how people might use a space and also acknowledging that there are different religious practices that are impacted during the workday and for us to, you know, acknowledge that we again there are a wide variety of those practices to consider and what their needs might be during the day, and to provide a space for those needs during the day that might be a non-denominational, you know, room for meditation or prayer, and then maybe trying to review again the orientations of the room, where that room fits or it could be like within a workplace setting.
Josh Simma:In a similar fashion, are we able to provide an area for washing, if washing is important to a person and how they might accommodate washing their feet as part of their practice. Right, I think we've done a great job on a couple of projects of whether it's in a health care setting, of again providing a kind of calming, neutral spot for reflection during those kind of high anxiety times that take place within our health care world or in our workplace setting, just acknowledging the day-to-day practice where folks need time to reflect and to have a spot to step away from your work. To be able to do that reflection is important.
Lisa Miller:Yeah, that is a super great thing to think about and I think sometimes we you know, we as the designers of the design team, the architecture team, we have to be the ones to bring those questions up early on when we're planning the building, because those are the spaces we shouldn't just be trying to fit in Like. We have to be intentional, to understand, going back to understanding your client and their needs. You know, it's really our job as a guide to ask that question Is that something that you know the population, the users here need? Can we, we should, we should be planning for that? Let's build it into the budget, all those kinds of things, early on so it's not mistaken or people feel left out.
Matt Gerstner:So is there anything that we haven't touched on today, any questions? I haven't asked any burning hot topics that you want to talk about.
Lisa Miller:Got anything, josh, I have a couple of things. Yeah, you start.
Josh Simma:I'll think. I'll think I just I want to talk about Got anything. Josh, I have a couple of things yeah you start, I'll think of them.
Lisa Miller:I just I want to reiterate, because we kind of talked about at the beginning, that this is sometimes people use these words interchangeably, yeah, and we just want to get to the point that they're not the same.
Matt Gerstner:Right.
Lisa Miller:And that they really are distinct and that there really isn't one size that fits all for every building, and just utilizing, getting in early, asking the right questions, using resources, that's how we can design spaces that really are more inclusive, and that's our goal, I think, is to make people love the spaces they're in. Like I want to go into a space and I want to just love it. I want it to work, I want it to function. I want to go into a space and I want to just love it. I want it to work, I want it to function, I want to feel welcome, and so that's what we really try to do for our spaces and do the best we can. So, kind of just something to noodle on is that it's not. Not every project is the same, not every solution is the same. They all require individual solutions and tailored solutions.
Josh Simma:I think tag teaming on that idea of solutions again is us being kind of creative, understanding again a set of imposed standards or regulations. You know, I think that we do a great job of understanding the accessibility code and ADA and that there are these very unique technical requirements. Knee clearance might be something how to approach something and provide knee clearance for someone. Or how to address reach ranges for something and to be able to not look at that as being specific restrictions but as to being a great set of design opportunities for us to operate within.
Matt Gerstner:Love that thought, Love that thought. Well, I can't thank all of you enough for being here today. I know you've given all of our listeners a lot to think about when it comes to inclusive, universal or accessible design. So thank you all for being here. Really appreciate it.
Lisa Miller:Thank you, thank you, man. This was fun. I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you, man.
Matt Gerstner:This was fun. This has been Side of Design from BWBR brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today, give us a like, leave us a comment or, better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign at bwbrcom.
