Next Gen Mentoring: Fostering the Future of Design

At BWBR, we believe in being stewards of exceptional design—which means sharing our team’s unique skills, specialized knowledge, and abundance of passion with the next generation. Many BWBR staff members are involved in fostering young designers, whether that’s helping high school students navigate career paths or sparking creativity in elementary school classrooms. 

In this episode of Side of Design, we sat down with Senior Project Manager Andrea Cecelia and Marketing Manager Danielle Hilmo to chat about their deep commitment to outreach in their communities, the innovative new lenses students are bringing to design, and what it means for the future of the industry.

If you like what we are doing with our podcasts please subscribe and leave us a review!
You can also connect with us on any of our social media sites!
https://www.facebook.com/BWBRsolutions
https://twitter.com/BWBR
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bwbr-architects/
https://www.bwbr.com/side-of-design-podcast/

Transcript

Welcome To Side Of Design

Matt Gerstner 0:00

This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge tweeters from every part of the industry. Hello and welcome to Side of Design from BWBR. I'm your host, Matt Gersner. On today's episode, we will be talking about the next generation or two of design talent, what they care about, how we can support them, and what their path to the profession might look like. So joining me today for this conversation are BWBR Senior Project Manager Andrea Cecelia and marketing manager Danielle Hilmo. Thank you both for joining today.

Danielle Hilmo 0:33

Thanks, Matt.

Meet The Guests And Their Roles

Matt Gerstner 0:34

Great to have you both on because I already know what y'all do. I already know how much y'all are doing behind the scenes. So I'm excited to talk about it and let our listeners hear about it today. So we're just going to start. I would like to ask both of you if you could just tell us a little bit about your day, job quotation fingers in there, you know, with the firm. And then also tell us about the ways you're involved, you know, in the outreach to young people who might someday find themselves in our design field. Danielle, why don't you get us started with this.

Danielle Hilmo 1:03

Sure. So marketing manager at BWBR, I do mostly I'm in the pursuits world. So it's that final step before we get a project. It's writing very custom proposals, coaching up our teams on interviews. So I've been at BWBR for a really long time, over 25 years. And I always. yeah, and so I always say that I can like impersonate an architect, at least for the first workshop, before we get into all of the really expert stuff that architects need to know. So I'm very familiar with the industry. In 2017, I was asked to help with organizing an ACE mentor program team. So ACE stands for architecture construction engineering. It's a national program. We're starting, so it's a national program in 37 states across the country for high school students after school. And we were starting up a team at our office. So there was a project manager here at the time who had already been involved with the program mentoring at a school, and he needed another person to help him start out his team. So I was actually just like, hey, this is happening. I didn't know anything about Ace. Would you like to help, Eric West was his name? So would you like to help Eric out? Okay. And I've been doing it ever since.

Matt Gerstner 2:31

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Sounds like maybe you found something you enjoy doing.

Danielle Hilmo 2:35

Yeah.

Matt Gerstner 2:36

That's wonderful. How about you, Andrea?

Andrea Cecelia 2:39

So I'm a project manager. What does that mean? Well, my day to day job. I manage people. Shocker. I am an architect, but I like to tell people I no longer draw lines. I help progress projects through our office. So uh starting with working with Danielle in pursuits and then building a team and working with that team and the owner to get a project through the construction documents and then staying on through completion. So while I I don't design the project, I design the process now.

Matt Gerstner 3:13

Okay.

Andrea Cecelia 3:14

Very different, but I love it. And it it's just as much design and putting a puzzle together as building a building is.

Matt Gerstner 3:22

Right, right.

Andrea Cecelia 3:23

So it's it's it's been interesting going into this different role that I grew up through architecture school, never thought much about the the management side of it.

Matt Gerstner 3:32

Yeah, for sure.

Andrea Cecelia 3:33

But I started a number of years ago with my kids, actually. I wanted to get into their classrooms. So when they were really young, I was just volunteering, helping out as a parent in the classroom. And they hit third grade, my oldest, and the teacher wasn't as interested in like the the helping out, the reading to students as much. So I offered up, well, do you have an interest in me talking about architecture? And she was thrilled to have me come in and talk about it. So that was the first experience I had a number of years ago. I built a series of, I believe it was like four classes where I talked about something in design. So one I remember memorable, one of the discussions was relating structure of a building to the bones of a body or the branches of a tree. So help wrap kids' minds around what is all going on. Because you can't see the structure of the building a lot of times, or you don't know what it is, and then doing some sort of design activity. So I brought in one day a bunch of recycled materials and just let them build and explore uh toilet paper tubes and paper towel tubes and newspaper and all of that stuff. So that was fun.

Matt Gerstner 4:41

Yeah.

Andrea Cecelia 4:42

And that and that slowly morphed into lessons talking to other architects and developing some of my own. So everything from I'll I read books to second graders about architecture and design to a city building design activity with fourth graders every year, to designing your own house with fifth graders, to talking to sixth grade innovation class about structure and then the profession of architecture. So it kind of hits a wide range of different activities.

Why Mentoring Matters For Everyone

Matt Gerstner 5:09

Yeah, and at a younger age. That's I love, I love the the fact that, okay, Danielle, you started just you know assisting in in this program that was already fully structured and ready in there. And then Andrea, you did more of a grassroots thing. You just kind of came in and said, Where can I, where can I be of assistance? That's just so cool. So I I definitely know I've got the right two people in this conversation because we're gonna cover a wide range. You've got Andrea's, you're covering more of the grade school side of things right now. And then Danielle, you were working with high school students who are maybe a little bit closer to thinking about you know what their career path might look like, what kind of studies they might go through. So that's that's this is great. We're gonna but we're gonna get the whole gamut. So when you are both thinking about this process and about working with students and kids, what drives you both to dedicate so much time and energy into this work? You know, and how did you happen into your respective mentorship and education role? So I Andrea, you you kind of gave us some of that background, Danielle, you did as well. But what is your drive? What how how how do you just do that? Where's the energy come from?

Danielle Hilmo 6:21

So, to back up a little bit, Andrea did a great job of explaining exactly what she was doing with the kids. I should probably talk a little bit more about the Ace Mentor program. So it goes every year for 16 weeks, two-hour sessions one time per week after school. And a lot of the teams across the country, they do it in different ways. So typically the programs partner with the school districts, and the teams happen within the school, and they're co-taught by a teacher, and it's all volunteer mentors who are professionals in the architecture, engineering, and construction field. So it's a really great grassroots. There's over 6,000 professional volunteers who mentor in this program. And it's a hands-on learning opportunity for the kids. And so we do an entire project and we go through every aspect of what a project needs in terms of team. So every week at our firm, we we welcome the kids from the district into our office, which is really unique. And we do hands-on exercises, sort of like what Andrea was talking about building a bridge out of hot glue and popsicle sticks to teach them about different types of structure. This year we had that. We don't do it every year, we do different things. Um, but this year we did it and we tested it with stone samples. We actually loaded up over 19 pounds of samples on some of these structures that were not that big. They were like 12 inches long, 12 to 18 inches long. So it works, right? The program works. Yeah, 98% of kids in ACE actually go to college. And there are a high majority of those kids who felt more confident about applying to college and thinking that they would be successful in college. A lot of the students that are served by this program are underrepresented groups. And that is one thing that really drives me and gives me a lot of passion for the program because, as a lot of people know, there are not enough people of color, especially in architecture and engineering, and especially in engineering, not enough women. So I've seen since 2017, I've seen so many kids go off to major in in all three architecture, engineering, and construction at some of the top universities in our region. So that's that's what really drives me. And having those those alums come back and talk to the current students is really gratifying and inspiring for everybody in the room. So that's one of the things that drives me. And then beyond uh the self-serving of getting the next generation of people in our industry, I just love welcoming the the students into an office environment because a lot of these kids do not have the opportunity to come in and feel welcomed. And they just we we let them feel at home. They're welcome to. I've had other staff members say they're in the lunchroom. Kids come a little bit early if they can and hang out, and they start just randomly asking other people who come in the lunchroom questions about their job, and like it everyone gets a kick out of it, both the students and the and the staff. So having the kids know that they can go into the corporate world and it's fine, it's not intimidating. That is really the biggest goal for me.

Matt Gerstner 10:09

That's fantastic. The curiosity of the kids just you know, asking the questions. That's so, so important. I absolutely love that. So, Andrea, what what's your what's your drive? Where's your energy come from?

Andrea Cecelia 10:22

I have found that it's uplifting and inspiring to talk to kids. When I first started it, I was a little intimidated, I'll be honest. Going in to talk to kids and oh my gosh, what are they gonna say? What about how am I gonna keep them busy? But once I started developing some of these lessons and I I hit my rhythm so I know what to expect, it really became an uplifting experience. So I left sessions with a a drive to remember what where I started when looking at kids and what they want to design, they're not constrained by codes and gravity sometimes. And well, yes, as architects, you know, we are. We're responsible for the health, safety, and welfare of of the public. Sometimes it takes a little reminder of, you know what, let's think outside the box. What what is really cool? What can you get passionate about? Um, so leaving these sessions has really inspired me to keep doing it because it's it's fun and I get to talk about something I love with students, but then I I leave just thinking it, oh yeah, that's right. I let's let's think differently about this, let's get inspired, let's enjoy what we're doing and not get lost in the in sometimes the monotony of of our everyday work. So that's that's what I get out of it. It's selfish because it's uplifting for me, but at the same time, I feel like I'm uh talking to Danielle, what you spoke on about diversifying the profession. And that's really what it it comes down to is every single person is affected by architecture. You can't avoid it. We all have to enter buildings, and even if you refuse to ever enter a building, you're shaped, your path anywhere is affected by buildings and structures and city planning. So it literally one art form that literally impacts every single person. Yeah. And it's important to, even if you don't want to be an architect, to understand good design and how design affects all of us. So it's it's this twofold pro not twofold problem, but twofold uh perspective of not only inspiring the next generation of architects, but also informing the next generation that architecture is important and the design of the built world is important. So that's really where I come from.

Danielle Hilmo 12:51

That's so great, Andrea, because that is actually one of the things I talk about when I go and do the recruiting visits in the schools, is I say, you know what? If you think about it, we spend most of our lives in buildings. And wouldn't it be nice if everywhere you went you felt welcomed and you could find your way and there were no barriers for you? And the way that we accomplish that kind of great environment is to have people in the profession who come from all walks of life and all different perspectives.

Andrea Cecelia 13:24

Exactly. Exactly. We have our own blinders that we don't realize sometimes. And by diversifying the profession, we start to understand different perspectives of different people. And it it goes from your background, how you grew up, what you value, but it's also just as important when you think about higher education. I went to two different architecture schools and they approach design very differently and a very different perspective. So it it it kind of works its way up from early years and your culture to just where you get your school and the way you think about architecture. It's it's it's so important for all of us to bring in all those different perspectives because it it affects everyone.

What Students Ask About Design

Matt Gerstner 14:08

There's so many things that you both just said. I don't think I can even begin to recap any of that, but the the diversity, huge, huge in just everything that we do. And I love the childlike curiosity because that's so inspirational. One of my favorite podcasts that we do every year is when I get to sit down and talk to our scholarship winners. So we're talking to students in college going for that degree. Maybe they're in their sophomore junior, maybe even senior year, and they're they're wrapping things up, but you get a whole fresh perspective. I'm talking to students that are bare minimum 20 years younger than me. So they have seen and done things that I never would have seen. And it's just so cool to get the diversity of perspective from them. So I just, yeah, you you you both nailed so many things about the profession and so many things that it needs. I absolutely love that. But what I'm really curious is when you're with the students now, what kinds of questions do they have about the field? What are they what kinds of things are they asking you about? And then at the same time, what obstacles maybe are they saying that they see or that they're running into or that you're just picking up on?

Andrea Cecelia 15:18

Since I tend to work with younger students, the questions can be all over the place. And it's, every once in a while I get I get a new question that wow, I never thought that I would get this question. Um, a lot of the questions though are related to they want to know how it relates to them. So, oh, have you worked on a project that we know of? Or did you work on some really cool like uh Camp Randall? No, no, I I haven't. It is cool though, um, since coming to BWBR, I've had more local projects in the Madison area. So then I can start, oh I've you know, I've worked with this client um that you might know of, or um whatever. So that that helps relate it to them. But right usually the the younger kids want to see the pictures and want to see what what I've been involved with. So that's that's always fun, is talking about the the interesting projects. Granted, usually why it's interesting to me, it's might go over their head a little bit when I talk to fourth grader about some super scientific clinical building um I'm working on, but they like they like the tangible aspects of it. So that's always fun is to talk about the cool, pretty picture stuff with them. I I did find it interesting. One memorable and it wasn't necessarily a question, but it was the city design.

Matt Gerstner 16:38

Oh, yeah.

Andrea Cecelia 16:39

I've had I've had students design a city, it's a collaborative group project. We've had some cities where no housing is accounted for because they each get to pick one building type. I had another one that it's only happened once, but brought in a nuclear power plant. So it's really interesting. Remember that. It's it's so interesting where their brains go. So, you know, I usually have a Target or a restaurant or a Costco or a school, but the random one-offs are always the really interesting ones. Like, wow, that's that's next level. I I don't think I would have thought it in fourth grade to oh, we need a nuclear power plant.

Matt Gerstner 17:17

Yeah, yeah. That's that's again, that's that childlike curiosity and things that we just forget about sometimes because we're so locked into what we do. I love that.

Danielle Hilmo 17:27

Yeah, the most questions we get actually are two different categories. One of the categories is very practical because these are kids who are, you know, trying to decide what direction they want to take. And so a lot of it is about scholarships because Ace Twin Cities does give out scholarships every single year. They're usually one to five thousand dollars per student, and multiple students get them, and they you can get you can apply for a scholarship every year you're in the program, so you can get up to four scholarships.

Matt Gerstner 18:02

Oh, that's amazing.

Danielle Hilmo 18:05

Some kids have gotten scholarships like two years in a row. So, anyways, they ask about that. They ask about internships, which Ace also sponsors some local internships. I think they call them externships actually. And then and there's a lot about like, you know, what what is the day-to-day? So when we have different kinds of engineers come in, or an urban planner or a construction manager, we usually have them talk about well, how did they get into this profession and what what kinds of things are they doing day to day? So, so that's something they're really curious about. But then on the other side, when we start working on our projects, so this year we're doing a cultural destination, and the site is at Fort Snelling in St. Paul, which is a historical site with a very complex cultural history, right? It was uh a military installation um since before Minnesota was a state, but traditionally it is indigenous land, right? And there were indigenous people that were killed at this site as well and held prisoner. So it's like the whole gamut. We had an architect come in, a Native American architect come in who talked about different aspects of indigenous design. And we've had other like community engagement specialists come in and for other projects, and that's really where the most conversation comes in. You know, how do you express these complexities in in architecture? Yeah, and how how does even the engineering play into it? You know, how how how do you make people feel a certain way when they walk into a building? And so that that is a really important for this generation of kids, and I've just seen it since the COVID intensify that it's like how do you express all of the different uh aspects of our cultures and history in St. Paul, which is one of the most diverse school districts in the entire nation.

Moments That Stick With Mentors

Matt Gerstner 20:23

That's amazing. That's I I love seriously, I still I'll say it again. I've got the two perfect people here for this conversation because we are covering from just the initial curiosity of you know of of grade school through high school students who are approaching college and really getting serious about asking some tough questions. This is this is fantastic. Do either of you have like any kind of particular memorable projects or lessons or experiences that maybe have happened throughout the years as you've been working with students?

Danielle Hilmo 20:58

I think the the things I remember the most are not maybe not necessarily what's in the project, but some of the things that happen along the way. So a very vivid memory. This was in the early days of me going out to schools and promoting the program. I was at a table and I had a video running on my laptop of both mentors, groups of students, people working on projects in a workshop. And this young woman came up to me and she she had she was very curious, and she had a friend with her, and she was dragging her friend along. She had a headscarf on, and it was clear that English is her second language, and she said, I didn't know women could do this job. That was a real eye opener for me. She didn't end up enrolling in the program, but just that interaction was like wow. Other other things about You know, just seeing our mentors bonding with some of the students of, you know, one of one of our recent graduates, she's at University of Wisconsin, Madison, studying engineering. So we had uh an emerging professional mechanical engineer come in to talk a couple of years ago, and they had this sidebar about being a woman in STEM, and they were just like, you know, talking about how it's okay to be, you know, like rainbows and unicorns and just be yourself and not have to fit in some kind of box to be an engineer.

Matt Gerstner 22:58

What kind of hopes, you know, do you see for the future of our profession? What do you what are you seeing these or how are you seeing these students, you know, moving forward? And let's let's start, let's start when they're young, Andrea. What are you seeing?

Andrea Cecelia 23:13

It really goes back to my why of why I do it is trying to inspire the next generation because architecture affects all of us. And it's with that diverse perspective. So everybody's voice matters. And I didn't touch on it, but I try to make a point in the classrooms when I work on the the city group project of making sure everybody has a voice so they all get one building to select in the city. But when when I start questioning, oh, why did why did you do this? Why did you put it there? Making sure that not just the ones raising their hands are speaking up, but trying to value every voice because at the end of the day, it it really does matter. And just seeing them get inspired and thinking about, oh, I didn't think about that as a profession. You know, you think about doctors, you think about firefighters. So I I'm really hopeful that even just the little bit of work Danielle does and I do, and and others out there connecting with students is inspiring them to either make the steps themselves or maybe encourage somebody else of like, oh yeah, you can you can do that. I I saw a female architect or I saw a person of color architect. It's it's not just you know white men of the previous generations, anybody can do it. Right.

Matt Gerstner 24:26

Let's let's break that stereotype, right?

Andrea Cecelia 24:28

Exactly. And and I distinctly remember a friend of mine in college was like, oh, I consider it architecture, but I told I was told you had to be really good at drawing. And I was like, no, heck no. I and I make a point to say that to every class I go in. I somehow at high, well, maybe not second graders. I think it's I don't usually bring it up, but older older elementary school kids and middle school kids, I make a point to say you don't have to be good at math, you don't have to be good at drawing, you have to love what you're doing and be inspired by it, and you have to be able to just visualize things.

Matt Gerstner 25:03

Yes.

Andrea Cecelia 25:04

Aside from that, if you're great at math but aren't good at the hand drawing, you're gonna be a great architect. If you're great at hand drawing but not so good at math, you're gonna be a great architect. If you're great at both or not great at both, it doesn't matter. It it's all about wanting to do it because it's something that you get passionate about and love to do. So trying to break some of those stereotypes of what people think architects need.

Matt Gerstner 25:29

Yeah. I love that.

Danielle Hilmo 25:30

Yeah, for me with the high school students, since the program is covering the entire gamut of what it takes to come up with a complete project, just telling kids, you know, there are a lot of different paths to this industry.

Matt Gerstner 25:48

Yes, there are.

Danielle Hilmo 25:49

We do, we cover construction and the trades. So people, if you're good with your hands, that is not less than recently talking with another person. He's with a program called Young Builders and Designers, doing some similar stuff as you, Andrea, in the Twin Cities, promoting creativity first and foremost with elementary and school kids. But he he tells the kids, hey, AI is not gonna fix your wall. AI is not AI is not gonna, you know, do some plumbing. AI is not gonna wire your house. I mean, maybe someday robots will do that, but not yet. And and there, there is, and I tell the students, you know, this industry, there is a war for talent in all three areas of this industry. Like you can choose to go to a two-year school, you can get a degree, a four-year degree in something else, and then come back and get and get a master's degree. There are all kinds of paths to success in this in this industry. And again, there is both the creative and the technical side. If you love thinking with both sides of your brain, this is the profession for you, either architecture, I mean, construction has a huge amount of creativity in the field as well. And and you can specialize in different things, and it takes a huge team to bring everything together. And also with the with the concern of AI, you know, we can't go anywhere without hearing it 50 times a day at least.

Matt Gerstner 27:30

Right.

Danielle Hilmo 27:30

AI is only as good as the human creativity behind it, otherwise, everything just becomes the same. Very true. So I like to have students, it's like, yes, you're absolutely you can use it, but what you put into it is the quality of what you get out of it. So you don't, you know, you don't have to be afraid that you AI can design your house, but it's gonna look like every other house.

How To Start Giving Back

Matt Gerstner 28:02

Yeah, that's that is absolutely true. Uh that's it's a great point to make because it is an emerging portion of of uh our field, if you will. And there's there's a lot that it can do, but there's a lot that it can't do yet. And it's going to take people behind it in order to get that outcome that we're looking for. I love that. I think we've talked about a lot about the kids here and what they're doing. Now let's switch gears just for a hot second to the profession. Let's let's I'm wondering, you know, what advice would you have for maybe young potential designers or other professionals in and around our industry who might want to plug into giving back? What what kind of advice would you give to these people?

Danielle Hilmo 28:52

You know, as I said, I was sort of just asked to get into it, and and one of the great things is it snowballed into other things. So I've I've learned a lot about myself as I've been mentoring. Um, one time one of the schools asked me to be part of an assembly about people in different professions and career paths. And one of the things I was like in my 40s at the time, and I was like, you know what? I am never, I have never had so much fun as I am having right now. Until I said it out loud, I didn't even know. And that, you know, with experience comes confidence, and you don't have to be confident right now in your life, you don't have to have everything figured out. So this like insights about myself that I've I suddenly realized. But also not only that, um, then the working with other people who have the same passions as you, other professionals, is immensely powerful. And there are opportunities for me to be mentored by other mentors, both professionally and just as being a person who makes an impact. And then being able to pass that on not only to the students, but to people who are emerging professionals, you don't have to know how to teach, you don't have to have a lot of experience around kids, you don't have to be a parent, you just have to come with an open mind and feel it out, you know, just have empathy for the people around you. So I think that's my biggest thing is if you feel like this is an area where you want to pass on your knowledge, you don't already have to be a full package of, well, I don't know how to relate to kids or uh I don't have all the answers. You don't need that, you just need to be interested.

Andrea Cecelia 30:56

I didn't know ACE existed until I came to BWBR. And so when I was looking at it, it was incredibly daunting as I was building things. And then once I found other architects that had lessons and had resources to to pull from and incorporate, helped out because it it was incredibly daunting. And I do wonder how many people struggle to get over that. I'd like to talk, but I don't I don't know how. I don't know what I talk about, or I feel like I have to devote so much time. And I think had I found ACE or other programs like that before building my own, I probably would have gotten not necessarily stuck. That's not the right word, but it's more of I would have just done it and and I'm sure I would have loved it. But I don't think I would have developed the passion I have with elementary school kids and the comfort I have with elementary school kids without going this path. So it was it was definitely a a bigger struggle to do it all on my own and start from scratch. But I've learned, like you Danielle, we're saying you've learned so much about yourself. I've learned so much about myself and what I can do that it's actually brought more confidence when I interview or speak to clients or anything of just the approach of, okay, I know what I'm talking about. And I don't have to be an expert on everything, but the confidence to just be myself and talk to it and bringing that to students when you're not going to get judged on saying the wrong thing, because like I tell them, there is no right or wrong answer in your design. It's it's just different, and trying to remember that when I when I approach myself. So I the advice now a long way to get around to the advice I have is is if you have opportunities to ask questions and you're curious and somebody to help lead you in a direction, it does help the process seem less daunting. But if you just want to go try something new on your own, Girl Scout troops, Cub Scout troops, like they'll they'll take lessons. Elementary schools, yes, I had a connection because of my kids, so I knew the teachers, I knew the principal. That that does help. If you call call school, sometimes it might take a little bit longer. But libraries, children's museums, I've had a lot of great opportunities there as well. Hey, I'm I'd like to talk about this. Is there something we could work on together? So baby steps, and then you know, look at what ACE does, look at what we've done. I know national AIA even has now a whole conglomerate of ideas sitting out there so people aren't starting from scratch. So it's just being being curious and and thinking about what what you might be interested in, what brings you joy at the end of the day. You're gonna want to do this because it makes you happy. Because if it doesn't make you happy, nobody's gonna get anything out of it. If you don't want to, you know, uplift other people and work with them, you know, if you're gonna show up to a bunch of fifth graders, oh hi. I like they're not gonna respond to you.

Matt Gerstner 34:08

No they won't.

Andrea Cecelia 34:10

They they can read uh that passion or that lack of passion pretty quickly. So if it if but even if there's a kernel of it, explore it because you you don't know whose life you might impact. You know, it only takes one person.

Danielle Hilmo 34:22

I think the other piece of advice is I would say is don't give up. So yes, um the early years of so after my co-lead mentor left, he he moved to a different state. There were a couple years where I was sort of not being an architect and leading this team, uh struggling. I had another co-lead partner at the time, but we were struggling a little bit. And then, of course, COVID happened and we did it virtually and that changed everything. Uh, and then the kids came back to school and they were having some challenges working together or even just finding their voice, I guess is what I would say. So now I feel like everything is back, and then the the other challenge was getting the trust of the school district to help us promote the program. Well, let me tell you, there was one year during COVID where we had three students on our team. Last two years we've had 30 each.

Matt Gerstner 35:29

Oh my goodness.

Danielle Hilmo 35:30

So it took, you know, almost 10 years, but now that we're doing an official partnership with the district. It's not just come into our school and see if any students will bite on the program. Like they are actively promoting.

Andrea Cecelia 35:47

That's awesome.

Closing Thanks And Listener Invitation

Matt Gerstner 35:48

So the opportunities are out there. The kids are hungry for information, and it's just I yeah, like you said, the persistence, the willingness to just try, get out there and do it. I absolutely love it. And I'm just gonna wrap things up by saying thank you both so much for your time and insights today. I know you gave listeners a lot to think about, and this one just want to run the gamut the gamut. We we can have listeners that are in grade school all the way up through the profession now, and there's a lot to learn about what we all do. So thank you both for all the time you gave me today. And to our listeners, until next time, see you on the other side. This has been Side of Design from BWBR. Brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you find value in what you've heard today, give us a like, leave us a comment, or better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at side ofdesign@bwbr.com.